4B2 Episode 1 John Peck

This is a podcast aiming to provide positive messaging and inspiration for men, including guidance for the host's two young daughters. The guest, John Peck, discusses challenges faced in predominantly male environments, the importance of sensitivity, and the need for positive role models for men.


Key Takeaways

The podcast focuses on positive messaging and inspiration for men and aims to help those who need it, regardless of gender or background.
John Peck highlights the challenge of balancing energy and sensitivity in predominantly male environments, such as the police and the Army.
Male-female groups tend to have a more sensitive and different dynamic compared to all-male groups in discussions.
There is a need for more positive role modeling and support networks for men in society.
The conversation touches on the difficulty of understanding each other's experiences between men and women.
The host's intention is to help men who aspire to be better by providing positive role models and combating negative behaviors.
The guest's book, "How to Adventure: The Seven Seas to Success," is promoted.

Transcript

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hello 4b2, 4 billion and two this podcast is about four billion men and two little  girls at the moment but two women later on. This is my really a podcast hobby,  a project I want to do to try to focus on positive messaging positive inspiration outlook for men and  that's why four billion because there's quite a lot of them in the world and just to make it  not exclusively man it's also for my two little girls to have some guidance and hopefully some  ideas as they grow up it is a safe space for all that everybody is welcome and I encourage anyone  to share this and and share the messaging here because my idea is to try and help men which  involves everybody trying to do that, so men who need help need help from everybody so regardless  of gender sex background anything so this is all about positivity and I hope that everyone moving  forward understands that because it is a sensitive topic and I recognize that my first guest today  is the first guest of my other podcast when building and I'm so happy again to  have him on John peck so John if you can take a moment just to introduce yourself in case  people didn't listen to my previous podcast my first episode just take a moment to introduce  yourself who you are what's your background and how do you get to where you are today  yes okay Nick it's it's great to join you on this very courageous very courageous project I think  we were both talking briefly before we came online and you know it is a very very sensitive area and  I and you know I suppose most people would back away from it because we could very easily say  something that could be you know felt to be very inappropriate and you know in our naivety as men  we could say something with good intent and it might be seen as kind of you know being kind  of you know really unpleasant and unpleasant but you know naive perhaps really so I'm coming into  this with with it with the trust anybody who listens to this is is going to pick up my my  thoughts as they appear in my head right now but I wouldn't really want to kind of have to defend  them too much reading I guess so they're a bit like a dialogue really I don't think it's like  an only I can talk as a being a male I can't talk about you know I know nothing about transgender  really I can't speak for them I'm sure they have different conversation I can't speak for women I  I hope bit of an understanding of of what what happens right and my life also has been  I suppose predominantly male dominated as much as you know I went to a male boarding school and was  there for goodness knows 10 years or something and I then became a male army officer in an  all-male domain at that time for a few years then became a police officer in the London you know  within the Metro on police which is undertaking some terrible terrible reviews at the moment  and and ended up very senior and again in that all male domain really and yet I kind of view some of  the successes I had in in those years as having quite a a kind of developed sensitivity which I'll  perhaps talk about later which allowed me to do a lot of things that I wasn't able to otherwise do  and also that has trickled into my family I think as well and my role as a father but again perhaps  we can talk about that later so so I'm kind of you know I suppose I'm a Management Consultant  now working with teams taking senior teams away doing kind of meaningful work with them helping  them turn their business around and which is very mixed gender and my team is mixed gender  so so that's the work of really exciting when I'm not doing that I'm doing Adventures running across  the Atlantic Ocean and and doing a bunch of other crazy stuff Adventures Adventures of once or not  and curiously enough I'm just coaching for women who are rowing across the Atlantic in 18 months  time which is a wonderful project for me to do so I'm kind of hugely ex I'm excited by your  projects and I I'm excited to be your character by your karishniken and taking this on and I  just hope that people who watch it will do will do so with the sensitivity that I know you have  so well done yeah I totally appreciate that and yeah well we'll see I guess I'm I'm sure there's  going to be someone who's not happy but if if the majority understand the positive intent  and the definitely sensitive intent that we have and hopefully it'll it'll help someone and if it  helps one person this is what I've said before if it helps at least one person and doesn't hurt  others then it's it's been a success so yeah I I totally totally recognize that you you have very  sensitive Outlook and approach and I know that your your intent is fully fully positive but  let's jump straight in so what I wanted to really ask first and foremost is like challenges what are  the challenges given that you've worked in this very male environment in fact and you've also  even mentioned but you're also a father of three boys so you've also got that element of your life  it's very male heavy as well so I was interested to know from your perspective what are some of the  challenges you've seen and you've maybe faced yourself but you've seen in your work facing  mainly men like you know things that are kind of male exclusive or predominantly men related sure okay so if I look at in a work environment and and I think back  particularly those days in the in the police and also in the Army when men men are together  they they fuel each other up with with a lot of energy and a lot of get up and go as indeed  as indeed women would as well and and they they seem to sort of draw energy of maleness from each  other which allowed them to go on and take risks and do stuff that's really quite quite difficult  I understand that really well I spend a lot of time in male company and and understand that  the danger for them of course is that they go over the top and they and they become kind of  their thoughts become kind of ridiculous and a very negative so I and and my job I guess  as a senior please the leader particularly at that late stage when running a police  station which was not which was in the time of the troubles in in London was to actually  not to bring that malice but to bring a kind of a much more of a tenderness to  the role which enabled me to be able to have conversations with people in the community  in a much more effective way than than than the much more traditional male way let's say  and that and then it enabled me to open lots of doors which otherwise I don't think would  have been open so I think at work you know it is really critical for men they're able  to to open both sides of themselves and a lot of the stuff we're reading now is very much about  as a senior leaders being able to open up ourselves to people and show that kind of in a  weakness of your lying sensitivity so I think that's quite interesting so that that's kind  of was very much my role and when I'm working with groups and teams that's what we try and  do basically is to is to get those kind of much more tender conversations going on apart from  obviously bringing the business to move forward but it's actually getting people to work very  closely with each other in that way and people sometimes say you're to me you're sometimes more  like a woman than a man in the way you you operate which is interesting then of course  so we talk about the challenges faced by men so we're talking about work and then of course you  know in a family you know how do you what is your role as a father and how do you do that  and I think for men that's that's quite difficult now to be tender and actually then to be strong  you know as a father which sometimes gets neglected and leaves people children be  uncontained I think and then so in families and in relationships and perhaps we'll talk about a  little bit later but you know how can we how can we manage our maleness in a relationship in a way  that allows us to be kind of potent enough to do what we have to do and yet not be impotent and and  I think that's interesting and finally in life I mean who am I kind of what am I here for and how  how can we manage when when every night we watch television and we see an appalling examples of  senior man in organizations behaving so badly you know towards women and and what do we deal with  the collective guilt that we carry from watching that you know from our embarrassment as a man and  particularly for me as a senior police officer in London I mean how am I feeling right now about  the terrible things that we see presented in front of us and you know and and that really is I think  that's really quite difficult for us as a person and particularly as a man in respect to this  particular aspect so and then finally you know the pressures how can I conduct myself in life  within a prescribed pattern of correctness I'm not talking about political credits I mean generally  the need for us to be correct in the way we present ourselves without falling over tripping up  so I do think that's really I think that puts a lot of pressure on it and then it should do  as well and anyone watching this would say well quite right too you know it should happen but the  reality is I'm not sure that women had that same pressure they have other pressures of course it's  far more important pressures but I'm not sure they have that same pressures around correctness that  men are having their life is so interesting I I gave John just to give everyone who's listening a  heads up I gave John these questions like a couple of guideline questions about 20 minutes before the  call and he's already like knocked them out of the park I'd say like you're clearly just had a little  thinking that's a beautiful set of beautiful set of answers I I think one thing that's interesting  within your answers you talked about tenderness and I'd love to go back to that like more dig a  little more what tenderness means but one thing I would say about all of those answers sort of  stereotypes and what the stereotypes were in the policing and what it was meant what how you  were meant to be in the army or the the police and how you know what it means to be a police  officer as well as just a man like or whatever the the stereotypes that we have in our cultures  especially in the West let's let's frame it from our point of view like of what it is to be a man  that's I think shifted as well and I think that shift alongside this sort of pressure of how to  conduct oneself we're now having to relearn some of the things as a society that we've we've been  brought up to to see differently maybe or see in a different way and I agree with you it's right  it's right that we should change and adapt but it is a challenge because it's especially facing men  how do you what do you think to those stereotypes and the previous ones as well well I I think it's  I I think a lot of it's around unders trying to understand what's going on and I I was  I went I was running a very busy police station in London I moved to another police station which  wasn't as busy but it gave me the opportunity the the you know in running this place it gave me  the opportunity to work to do a course at a place called The Tavistock Institute of human relations  and and and so I would sit you know every Tuesday evening you know with a bunch of people who were  from very different environments I mean mainly mainly female mainly from social services and  things and and and I kind of I learned a lot and during that I invited someone to come and do some  work with one of our shifts of police officers and they were able to get really deep conversations  happening around the the tenderness and the the sensitivity and the difficulty of their work and  and it taught me and she and I went on to do a master's degree studying the whole piece around  you know organization Behavior I think I was going to write my document as a dysfunctional behavior  in the metrobank police or something until my supervisors have an effect don't do that  it won't be a very wise idea but 25 years ago it was 25 years ago but I remember him saying to me  my supervisor saying to me well I bowled into his office one day when my supervisor of this  master's degree I was doing part-time and he said to me one day John you know you  guys are doing a fantastic job in the police in London oh thank you very much that's very  unusual for you to say something like that and he said yeah you are because you're you're like  you're like a repository for us all non-police us to put our unwanted thoughts and feelings  into you to displace them from ourselves so we don't have to confront them and put  them into you and I think there is something of that going on right now there seems to be  a sense to me that the the the the place in London having done some some people having done  some really bad things and of course shouldn't be properly punished for them and the terrible  things that we've heard of which are almost unthinkable but I wonder what it's like for  those really good people those really good men and women who are having to constantly take the Flack  now in the street and have no trust in the tour you know people I know would say they wouldn't  women so they wouldn't go to the police officer if they're in trouble you know and I just think  a Dreadful thing and I think it's a bit of that is happening around this gender thing about where  women quite rightly are having to kind of step up and you know make a point of of you know of of the  unfairness and the bad behavior of men but this seems to me there's no way or no way for men to  respond to that really I I can't see it apart and change their behavior which is obviously what  this is all about you know which is incredibly important but how can men respond to that and  and and what sense can they make of of their life yes they're decent people which most people are  you know one of the things I did learn was some stuff from Carl Jung around the he talks about  the animals the Animas and the animal within us okay and and it and it sounds complicated  it's not that complicated but basically it's the kind of the maleness and the femaleness there's  nothing to do with gender or sex or whatever that lies within all of a sudden the suggestion is oh  young that women will carry you know apart from their own kind of femaleness but we will carry the  Animus within them the alternative Shadow side of them will be animus and the shadow side of  and when we were when we were young we were old you were probably scared as well that I was a son you know really kind of scared  of of her animus if you like which made it very difficult for me as I grew up to through life  as a man because I decided that women were very angry women were something to avoid at  all costs you know so it was not a pleasant thing to have to experience and it took me a very good  therapist and you know quite a bit of money to actually get the hell out of that space and to  and to face up to the fact that everybody can be angry or you  know whatever because I do think it's quite difficult for men in in trying to their relationship with a with an angry partner I'm only talking about male female here let's  not get complicated without the agenda that'd be another discussion which sound  you could have but I'm not I'm not qualified talk so how can how can and my wife and I as  part of our therapy was to to to understand from very good therapists it's quite okay  to be angry and I'd learned and she'd learned through her parents that being angry is not a  safe place to be so we had to be taught how to be angry no and that for a man was quite hard it's really it's a it's a very interesting it's a very interesting point and again I feel I'm even  nervous I'm nervous in this conversation I'll be open about it you know I'm I'm trying hard to make  sure we you know I help you to guide your thoughts as much as I can like so that we remain in this  safe space of not upsetting people but it's obviously it's it's we're starting to talk about  men women and and differences in in those ways and and I think it's right that we have to do that  because in in a way you know men's experience and men's men's challenges are coming from whatever  this is whatever whatever those differences are like whether it's the testosterone that's causing  through us in a higher volume or whether it's the differences in animals Animal like you're saying  and I think it's it's I'm just I'm kind of wanting to verbalize that I'm nervous about  it because I I don't I really don't want to also feel like we're saying sweeping  generalizations about you know men and so we've been generalizations about women and that's that  and we've got some answer I think your point here is you said how can how are we supposed to  respond to these things you know and I I think that is one of the most fundamental challenges  we as individuals are not very good and then I'm talking about everybody now as a species  like we're not very good at understanding ourselves of reflecting and understanding  our our sort of core behaviors and our core responses to things you know our natural  anger our natural outrage and these these emotions they bubble up from nowhere like  we can't like unless you get really conditioned it's difficult to sort of spot it's difficult to  control and I think like you said understanding other people and their behaviors is is really  really important but it's also very difficult and I'd say as well like this I think that's one of  the big challenges we're facing like linked to what you're saying it's like we have all these  examples of what we definitely don't want to be right we have them displayed to us a lot in media  and in the way in which these like movements are coming in which are again rightly so you know we  should be aware of these negative things we should be conscious of them and and fighting all fighting  to you know get rid of them but the problem is that we don't have a lot of positive framing of  how we are differently you know we don't the the framing of like these traits that you've  just sort of briefly described and things there's not a lot of positivity framed around those things  like where are they useful in modern day where where is a sort of a traditional stereotypical man  trait useful in in nowadays sure okay we might be physio physiologically stronger on average so we  maybe can pick up the some block or something like more easily but you know but in reality that's not  modern day that's not like a that's not going to give us enough to be really useful in society and  in a in a constructive way so I just wanted to kind of like I wanted to give you a set another  nod to the safe space but also sort of the the angry woman thing I think you're right I think  there is something there but it's also this like the anger between people and the way in which we  feel sometimes we're being taught or or told we're supposed to  like dampen these things down we're supposed to you know not don't don't Shout at the kids don't  show angry you know you mustn't show any anger and and you mustn't frighten people so well that's  that makes sense you know logically it makes sense don't frighten kids that makes sense you shouldn't  frighten kids but sometimes you know kids are really annoying and you boil you know your  blood's boiling and you're shouting and then you know and then what what does that mean and how are  you then as a human like what does that mean about you I don't know I'd rather throw that ball at you really good I think for for a couple and you know you and I both have a female partner but  you know wives but I think for a couple the work is in trying to deal with these Dynamics and and  so my work was in trying to deal with my kind of patheticness in not being able to handle anger  I was able to handle it with men but for some memories and I wasn't able to hand it the women  now that's do you see what I mean that's not the woman's fault it's my fault and I'm sure that  women would equally have difficulty if they'd had a experience with a very angry father or whatever  and you know that that would have difficulty but so for all of us I think it's about working on  relationships in a way that allow these things to for us to be as good as we possibly can with  each other and and to not be dragged into those things that are amygdala is kind of going watch  out watch something terrible is going to happen yeah and to be able to be a bit more emotionally  mature you know and and you know whether it's not over your man or woman being able to exercise the  animals and the animal and I think that's where I kind of pull away from Young because I don't  think it's necessary that the elements belong to men the animals and the animals should be in the  man and the animal you know the both should be you should be able to exercise both of them and  and you know otherwise the difficulty is you you end up running away you know and men will  run away they'll run away and find reasons not to be around you know okay and that's not no I agree  so let's switch it to a little positivity now let's try and let's try and like look at some  some of the positive stuff so I wanted to revisit that tenderness comment because I  think that was really interesting and I want you to dig a Little Deeper on what that means to you  because you said about in you said in the police you said about tender conversations tenderness  bringing tenderness to the role and you also said something about you being more of a a woman and I  can't really say a woman more than a man in in that style I'm wondering like if you can talk  around that but also where does that come from in you is that confidence in yourself or what hmm that that's a that's a great question where does it come from because you know theoretically with  my whole male dominated background that would you know that would be unnatural  I think I was lucky to involve to to to marry a very emotionally intelligent woman who who's  helped me enormously in my development and and then also I got kind of very interested in the  topic and and extremely good therapist who who helped me get through it but I've said  but the the interesting thing is let me give an example of how it can manifest itself okay  and I can be brief on this but the kind of long story short about 15 years ago 10 years ago what  it was I I was had the privilege of of working with some inner city leaders who work on the front  line as a charity you know in Charities working on the front line youth leaders with the people  you know predominantly from inner city gangs and they were wonderful people they taught me so much  but I remember coming to the end of a session and one of the The Men Who was maybe in his  very early twenties came up to me and said to me oh I sort of preempted by saying my middle  one my middle side both my young Sons used to work with me in this work and the middle one  used to work very closely with me with groups so often we'd be gonna help you pick up a mountain  and I'd be gonna have a mountain we'd see each other and wait up and down through the Mist and  and as as he as we approached each other you go oh Dad and he come over and give me a big Contour  and what other one of the guys who've been on the course and the inner city guys came up to  me and said you know you've taught me so much I was okay that's very nice and he said no no  he said you've taught me a lot about being a father and I was going how because I haven't  talked about the advice and I've just watched you with your son I've watched you cuddle him and I've  watched the affection from you that you have for each other he said I don't that hasn't entered in  my life he said I've got a child but I've sung but I wouldn't it would never crossed my mind  you know I don't see this boyfriend I wouldn't have crossed my mind when I do see him to give  him a cuddle like that as a father so so that stuff does spread you know and and on courses  we my team are always cuddling each other you know in a love in a loving way a very appropriate way  you know hey when you see how you doing mate you know and and it's quite fun I think the  clients are quite enjoy it you know because we can kind of encourage that warmth and openness  and so I think we can we can demonstrate it and with my children even in their angry teenage years  when they were growing I'm not angry but you know they're you know crazy teenagers whenever  we dropped off in the car they'd always give us a kiss before they went men boys you know in their  teens with all their mates around them and I think I think that's that's what we can do yeah yeah we  can demonstrate better behaviors than and we would have learned when when we were younger you know we  can when our father my father I remember giving him a cuddle and he looked absolutely horrified  as if I was gonna I don't know what you thought was gonna happen he sort of shrunk back I thought  yeah because he sent me the boarding school to tough me up that was his thing because I got to  Elvis sisters and he said you know you need to toughen up toughen up and you know I'm saying to  send me off send me off the boys in school for 10 years you know and so that's the way it was it's a good point because it's physical physical affection is something we all crave human beings  crave it's something that we I think have built in and men don't spend a lot of time you know they  spend a lot of time with the polite we're saying this looking feeling like they want to have sex  let's I'm trying to think of the most appropriate way of saying this I think we as we have a lot  more of that generally than women I've I've at least from what I understand my lived experience  certainly that seems to be the case but it but it's it's that physical it's the intimacy which  is also it's not just about you know the sex it's about the intimacy I think we're craving I think  one of the challenges that men generally face as well is there's been a lot of historical prejudice  against you know a lot of homophobia right and certainly when I grew up when I was younger it's  kind of normal to be like quite homophobic and not necessarily really hating people or going  out of your way to like hurt people or anything but just negative behavior you know I'm ashamed  of it now but it also I'm it's cognizant that it was of our time you know I'm sure there was gay  guys around me at my all-boy school and they were like would have kept themselves completely quiet  because it would have been awful for them to come out at that time you know and I'm  very happy very very happy that that's changed nowadays and you know I think a lot of a lot I  mean there's still homophobia but there's a lot more young kids who are much more like  take everything as they go you know whatever like it doesn't matter that you're what your sexual  preference is and things but I think with that that stuff because of that negative historical  sort of legacy of homophobia and and what men can do to one another that is you know appropriate or  allowed in society I mean I'm thinking of like the way you watch people hugging each other now units  there's a lot of like this hand slapping big slap on the back type of thing but even that's like  it's it shows affection it shows the closeness and I also I'm a big hugger you know I hug hug people  hopefully appropriately all the time but it's but I think men men do need that as well and I think  that's something which we I mean I do Jiu Jitsu now which is like you know I always joke with my  wife it's like basically going to a to a gym and hugging a man for an hour and a half or usually a  man lying about hugging each other trying to not to break each other's arms but but but it is it  is interesting how that gives me something that I that I kind of need like a closeness a connection  you know it's like it's nothing sexual at all it's a it's a closeness of someone the connections  I'm just interested about that like I feel like that's something maybe the tenderness  gets shown as well through those type of things and we we lack that whereas girls generally much  more affectionate in that way they'll touch one another they'll there's no Legacy yes in that way  and I think it's also slightly complicated I don't dance over country but you know I found it easier  sometimes cuddle men because I sometimes worry if I cuddle a woman who knows this felt to be  inappropriate you know am I kind of cuddling right right or you know so it starts cuddling a distance  and you know because you know one of these yeah yeah or something you know but there we are it's  but I you know if you look at the good research absolutely yeah sorry yeah you know if you look  at the result you go you go sorry Uncle you said look at look at the research start look at the  research again yeah I mean if you look at the research around kind of monkeys you know and or  chimpanzees if they put them in a setting where they they haven't been cuddled you know by their  mother and they put a like a post wrap around with a cloth and you know they'll go and cuddle  the posts I mean it's so you know so you know I think it's great I think it's really good I think  that's something has men that we can show lead on you know and and that does help enormous man and  also being able to express our our tenderness and insecurity is is very and if I think of  my three boys they're they're really really good friends of mine and I don't think there's there's  very little they don't know about me you know that that I wouldn't as I haven't shared with  them if I assume we took a lot in feelings as well and they're three strong men you know  they yeah and the conversations they will have with their friends will be like that deeper more interesting I feel like you've got you you've given them you and your dad as well I think we talked  about that in the previous podcast your dad is a very very inspirational man and I think  you know probably that's an and your mum as well you know she was yes maybe she was angry  to be honest I remember Auntie Yvonne as having very bad hearing because I think I was so young  when she was older you know so she's just very bad hearing and used to sort of talk very loudly  because of it so as I remember her being very loud not necessarily angry but but yeah so your  dad and her together probably really good Role Models I would say and that's something else  I think role modeling Behavior that's something I'm going to look into more and more in this  hopefully in this sort of sequence of talking about men and because I I see some of the role  models now that a lot of men are flocking to the Andrew Tates of the world and I think we  briefly talked about him and and you know Jordan Peterson's and things there's there's like a lot  of it's quite one directional in in in in in in sort of telling men what they should be and how  they should be that and it focuses a lot on material wealth and and and and elements of  of Personality which to be honest I don't think are going to help men overall I mean and and just  for the for the record you know I think some of what Andrew Tate says makes a lot of sense he he's  quite a smart guy in the way he's constructed his business and things I personally don't buy into a  lot of the more kind of like materialistic stuff and and he he does have some very misogynistic  views so I don't like the guy very much but I give him credit for like you know he's constructed  something which is obviously creating them a lot of success in money and things and same with  Jordan Peterson I really like Jordan Peterson's book I read that I was like that makes sense to  me it's a good guide guideline you know and again but he's kind of speaking about other things but  people who've jumped onto their kind of bandwagon and listening to them and being completely  absorbed by their messaging I worry a little bit that we we lose other role modeling behavior and  people like yourself who you know people should be listening to and and and inspired by and yeah  I'll plug your book at this point so you've got two books actually so you've got restless and the  Seven Seas of success of the adventurer is seven right or nine I've got it I'm not I'm getting it  wrong now seven seasons how to add Adventure in your life so John's written two books both of  which are excellent the first one is all about his his his adventurous life and the second one  is basically like how to be a crazy Adventurer on on steroids basically without steroids but  an adventurous life survive yeah yeah so sorry I lost myself because I then started plugging a book  but I I was talking about those role models and role modeling Behavior I was wondering  if you like how how do you feel about that with regards to you know your dad and you and the role  modeling behavior that you've experienced what you described on that on the with the leader teams okay I covered it from if I think a bit from a Leader's leadership perspective I I modeled myself  on some really good leaders that I've come across over my life and there was one in particular when  I was a young Army also I was waiting for training to become a young army officer now it's a soldier  for nine months living in about room with a bunch of crazy crazy dudes you know men and who were off  the rail and there's some of them and we had a young we've had various different army officers  used to come through and look after us for a few weeks or something and I saw the ones who were  just natural leaders and the ones who weren't you know and the ones who were had a real warmth to  them and the men couldn't get that straight away they'd engage with them and they'd really follow  them over the end of the cliff you know and and so if I think of my role with them as I took them  off into the jungles of British Honduras as it was then for weeks at a time on Belize as  it's now called yeah on my own with a bunch of soldiers and a sergeant a couple of corporals  and my role was to get really close to them and to be a bit of a father figure for them very often  I'd write their letters for them and they were you know some quite tender moments and if ever  they were in trouble or worried about something my role was to be there as a sort of as a sport  and Mentor Forum then everything was fine know their life was good you know we'd go through  the tough times together and and they were they would support me and my role you know so I think  as leaders that there's some great stuff being written now around how critically important it  is for leaders whatever gender to openly share their feelings appropriately and their concerns  and their anxieties and their Frailty and so on and and and and if people can do that then  instantly works and if I if I'm working with teams as we do very often up in remote Cottages up in  the Lake District where there's disarmony in the team we we will deliberate within the first hour  encourage people to share some thoughts that are quite sensitive and tender with each other  and then we'll work with personality profiles which are well known things like Mars bricks and  many many other different versions of that where where they can talk about the issue of you know  what Young talked about as thinking and feeling and this is basically what we're talking about  here the Animus and the animal are in different words and when people then understand that that  we have a natural contingency to operate from a more feeling perspective I think that then  they can start to open up with each other and understand and respect each other as individuals  so there's a lot that we can do but we have to be listening and kind of really caring  about those relationships and once people start doing that if you get a whole team doing that  we can take them to the end of the world and now fantastic what the other thing I would say  yeah the other thing I would say is that we we occasionally we get an all-male group you know  a subgroup because we're working on subgroup six and they're never quite the same as a mixed group  when we get a kind of male female group there's a much there's a very different vibe  much more sensitive I think very often they'll be very typically we can't make  this assumption but often let's just say often there'll be a lot more sensitive discussion  taking place and I wonder if I do wonder if it's a case of you know  also sometimes in a mixed group for example with women modeling that behavior allowing to  be the first one to open up allowing to be the sort of there's a safer space in that way then  I feel like you know men and and I often wonder if it's like there's a there's an issue with the  fact that because men and women are different in certain ways I think one of the challenges is that  often we don't understand one another and there's always been that joke of like you  know men don't understand women and whatever you know like all this kind of like stereotypical like  laughing about how we don't understand women but I actually feel like nowadays really women  don't understand men a lot of the time and and and it's and it you know on the other side as  well and I feel like that's actually we're not as simple as people make us out to be you know  it's like there's a lot of stereotypes about how simple men are and things and it's like  I feel like there's a lot of ways in which we don't even recognize ourselves sometimes of  what we need and how we need that tenderness that emotional like understanding that we're  coming from an emotional perspective and we work better with that feelings as you said  so yeah I do wonder about that and how how we can try and push that a bit maybe in the future  is like let's try to help men be more tender and more open but like to get there it's the culture  also needs to shift between men between how they interact in in groups and things and it's also  not exactly the same as women or even still you know it's still not going to be the same level of  emotion necessarily or the same way in which the emotions are framed and the feelings are framed  no no I mean I and I'm thinking of you as you're speaking I'm thinking what would the headlines  be you know if you if you ventured a program on television or a headline and paper about  you know women don't understand I think I think they've been howler derision from  from people from men and from women and that's the difficulty from the men who'd be going oh  for God's sake people and for many women who are going no you don't know the half of it you  know you've talked to me about well I understand them very well very too well maybe they didn't  understand themselves so so we shouldn't laugh about it but I'm just saying how difficult it  is and and hence this is why I applaud you for having these conversations because you know it  it had difficult conversation to happen so yeah I'm sensitive and and that's a shame  I don't think it would be the same the other way around I think if women were were to share their  thoughts I think there would be far more respect and an understanding and listening I I inclined  to agree with you I mean I talked to my wife I mentioned this to you before but I talked to my  wife about doing this and having this I you know concept of a podcast or something to just try and  help men you know help men who need help and and get some more sort of positive inspiration maybe  role models in in front of men who can who need them and and she felt she felt like you  know well men have had this for years you know I mean I've got all of these support networks all  these these things and I thought well in some ways yes you know historically men have been massively  advantaged and privileged and you know especially white men like us you know white older men like us  is like you know we've had a lot of privilege in in a lot of different things and as you mentioned  before we had a lot of men within our peer groups that have been awful like done awful  things continue to do awful things and abuse power and abuse their position and abuse their privilege  so for sure like there's there's plenty of ways in which all of that's true except that it's also  true that we're having a separate lived experience you know when we we haven't actually got the  those of us who aspire to be something better something not representing those awful people  and something that is positively contributing towards society as a whole that you know there  isn't a lot out there positive role modeling and and I think for women there is a lot more  now because of the good work that's been done and continues to be done and should be done in  helping women to empower themselves and then in empowering women to to be leaders and and  you know and and take a strong female empowered approach but I I do agree I think there's a  lot I don't know if I agree because I'm not sure it's 100 what you said I don't want to  put words in your mouth in this sensitive topic but I feel like there is a lack of that for men  at the moment and yeah hopefully this will help hopefully this will help let's let's see I guess  okay listen John I'm gonna let you go because it's been wonderful to talk to you but just before we  go let's let's promote your book again because I really feel like we should we should promote  that book how to Adventure the seven sea Seven Cs to success pick it up in Amazon it's great  excellent read and also Restless you should read his first book which is fantastic as well and go  go check him out on the first podcast they ever did and tell me if it was a better interview this  time because I kind of listened to back to that interview and I cringed my way through it like  talking talking should have let you talk oh no no that's right but but thanks so much okay lovely  to talk to you Nick and just keep up a good boy well done for your courage, good man, thanks then